The Broken Rung: Why Women Lose Career Momentum Before They Even Start with Lareina Yee

We talk a lot about breaking glass ceilings—but what if the real problem starts at the very first step of the ladder? In this powerful episode, I sit down with Lareina Yee, senior partner at McKinsey & Company and co-author of The Broken Rung, to uncover the biggest barrier holding women back in their careers.

Lareina shares: 

 🔥 The data behind why women lose career momentum early
 🔥 What “experience capital” is—and how to build it
 🔥 Why motherhood can be an accelerator, not a hindrance
 🔥 The surprising truth about soft skills and how to treat them like hard skills
 🔥 How to choose the right company (not just the right job) for career growth

If you’ve ever felt stuck in your career or wondered how to break through the first big promotion hurdle, this episode is a must-listen.

🎧 Hit play now to start climbing!

Links and Resources:

• Connect with Lareina:
  • LinkedIn
  • X (formerly Twitter)
• Preorder her bookThe Broken Rung: When the Career Ladder Breaks for Women—and How They Can Succeed in Spite of It:
  • Amazon
  • Barnes & Noble
  • Books-A-Million
• Follow Lareina's insights:
  • McKinsey's 'At the Edge' Podcast Series

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Transcript

Lareina - 00:00:02:

Y'all, today I have with us an incredible guest, Lareina Yee, who is senior partner at McKinsey & Company. And y'all, she is the co-author of this incredible book, The Broken Rung. And y'all know we talk a lot about glass ceilings on this podcast, but today we're going to talk about where it starts at the bottom. So you're going to be blown away by today's guest. She was McKinsey's first ever chief diversity officer, and she co-founded the Women in Workplace Annual Study, which you all, I use probably on a daily basis. So Lareina, so excited to have you here. Welcome to the podcast.

Erica - 00:00:38:

Thank you. So excited to be here, Erica.

Lareina - 00:00:41:

Oh my goodness. Well, before we dive into all things about The Broken Rung, because I am so pumped about this book, I want to hear just a little bit of a backstory on who you are and what got us to this point.

Erica - 00:00:52:

Yeah. Well, I've been at McKinsey for almost 25 years, and I've always been in our technology practice. So thinking about all these new technologies and the way they affect how we work and live. I reached a personal professional milestone about 12, 13 years ago when I made partner. And I was so excited. You know, the promotion I was most excited about. And my sponsor, someone who opens doors and windows for me, sat down and we had a congratulatory coffee. And he said, and I expected it to be like, you're so great. You're so great. But it wasn't. He said, I. We'd like to know what now. I said, what do you mean? I mean, I was elected partner. This is great. He said, no, what will you do? Greater than what you've already done. And I want you to think about that. And I went and thought about it. And. I came back and I said, probably not what he was expecting. But I came back a couple weeks later and I said, I don't see women. In my meetings anymore. I don't know what happened. You know, in the executive room. I double the population. How is that possible? So I said, I would like to use McKinsey analytics capabilities, ability to change organizations, the ability to inspire leadership. To put some data. Around understanding why There are so few women at the time.

Lareina - 00:02:19:

And here we are with this amazing, incredible book. And you guys, I really want to dive into this because I think a lot of emphasis gets put on the glass ceiling and like only women in the top when really the problem starts at the bottom. I mean, that's what we're seeing is that women are losing that career momentum before it even really takes off. So Lareina, what are some of those reasons, number one, that you think that this Broken Rung exists? And then was there anything that surprised you when you started doing the research for the book?

Erica - 00:02:49:

Well, just as you said, Erica, when we started and when I started this journey over a decade ago, I was looking at the top. That was my focal point. But when we would collect the data, we would put it on the whiteboards. We would paste interesting slides and data on the walls. You know, it was scattered around. And while we're all looking at the top, and when we started this in corporate America about 19% of those at the executive leadership. Levels were women. And, you know, just we were looking there. And then all of a sudden I looked at the very beginning of the talent pipeline. Entry level. I was like, wait a second. Hang on. Women are 57% of college graduates. They're 48% of the entry level in the corporate workforce. So they're in other forms of work. And that number drops down precipitously right away. And that's where all the big numbers are. That's where you've got the largest number of women, these talented women. And if you were talented enough to get a job, I just don't think very much happens two, three, five years. Into it such that systematically we would see fewer women get promoted. So here's the number for every 100 men who get that first shot. That first advancement opportunity. The odds of advancement are women. R81. So for every 181 women see that first promotion. If you're a woman of color, if you're a black woman, That number is 54. And in all my years of doing this research, you know, this kind of side hustle passion project that's become probably one of the most important things that I feel I can contribute. Um, That number is basically stayed the same. It's kind of gone up, but then it's gone back down. So. That's the good news.

Lareina - 00:04:30:

No. And one of the things that you talk about in your book, which it really is kind of a fresh take. I haven't seen it in a lot of the work that I've, you know, examined and everything is this whole concept of experience capital. So talk to me. What is experience capital and how can we get more of it?

Erica - 00:04:48:

Well, we have to get more of it. That is the punchline. But let me roll it back to explain. You know, we can kind of get really depressed and say, oh my gosh, you know, those odds, you know, how can any woman like, you know, that's an even steeper climb than I imagined. And what we decided to do were myself and two colleagues, we teamed up and we said, Let's not belabor the challenge. Let's look at solutions. No matter where you work, it's not going to be a level playing field. What have we learned? And what do we see other amazing women doing? To buck the odds. And one of the critical concepts is what, Erica, you mentioned experience. Which is 50%. Of your lifetime earnings comes from what you learn on the job. And this is good news. But with a twist, right? Because that means the other 50% is what you got at school. And as I mentioned, Women do really well in school. They often have higher GPAs or graduating at higher rates than men. They've kicked butt in school. But are they kicking butt in work? The numbers suggest we don't see women advancing. So we focus on this idea of what do you do with the other 50%? How do you be bold and early and build that experience capital? And this isn't just... For getting a promotion and having the role that you want. This is actually far more at stake. This is about your long-term financial viability. Your long-term health. And the ability for you to thrive over time. And that may be like a big topic. But why not be strategic about your career? And think about every step as contributing. To your overall success.

Lareina - 00:06:31:

Yes. So when it comes to experience capital in the workplace, right, how do you get more of it? Do you just job hop? Are you roll hopping? What are we doing here?

Erica - 00:06:42:

You could be doing a lot of things. So there's not one way. But the first thing is to know that you want to acquire that. Now, one of the places that takes you is the choice of your job. Your choice of the company you work at, the choice of the roles you get. And underneath that, we spend time talking about the skills that matter as well. All of that matters. So one of the first tips we give, especially for people at the entry level, is choose a company, not just a job. So Erica, if you and I both have the same job opportunities. At three companies. And by the way, in this economy, we would be so fortunate. To have multiple job opportunities. We really would be. But I think what a woman typically does is say, Oh, Erica, I am so grateful. And that's real. Like, I am grateful. But. Now I have choice. So what are the questions you ask? Because it's more important to choose a company, a company that has. The right healthcare benefits, something really practical. A company that actually has women and has a record of advancing women. A company that helps women with. Internal training and programs that help you grow. There's this one woman who most recently has been the COO of Box, big software company in the Valley. And she talks about What she focused when we interviewed her was her first job at IBM over 30 years ago. And why did she go to IBM? She went to IBM in frontline sales. She went there because it had the. Best learning and training program. And she talks about how They invested in her. And those skills are still relevant to her today. That's choosing a company, not just a job.

Lareina - 00:08:24:

Yeah, there's a lot of IBM people where I live, actually. We have a big hub of it in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Erica - 00:08:29:

Give a shout out for that.

Lareina - 00:08:31:

And all those IBM people, though, they never leave. Like, they never leave. So I don't know what IBM's doing on the inside, but they're doing a good job. That is for sure, right? And Lareina, I tell people this story. Like, early in my career, I was in fitness and wellness for a very large company, Verizon. Everybody knows them, right? But I was so pigeonholed. Like, I had nowhere to go. And they pretty much told me, like, Erica, you've hit the top of your job and your pay grade. Like, I don't know what you're going to do. And it was kind of left up to that. And I transitioned into human resources. And what was so cool is I ended up, you know, I applied for all of these big name jobs, didn't get any callbacks, didn't get, you know, asked any of them, applied for a small company. And it was the best career move I could have possibly made, Lareina, because there was one person for HR. So I did. I did all of the recruiting. I did all of the employee relations. I did all of the benefits. Where in a large company like Verizon, they have an entire benefits team. So if you're on that team, you're very limited. So I share that story because a lot of people think it's so hard to kind of get that experience capital. But do you have any strategies for when choosing that company? Because I didn't know that. I thought bigger the company, better the opportunity, right? What are the questions they should be asking?

Erica - 00:09:52:

Well, Erica, I think your story is so emblematic. So to the idea that there's not one road, maybe. 30 years ago, you joined IBM and you stay the whole time. Maybe for same reputation company, you pivot to a smaller company. The most important thing or like maybe two things to watch out for in your career is you are never at the very top of your game. Meaning like the idea that they said to you in that instance, no matter who the employer is, you're you know, you're at the top of your game. I don't know how old you were at that point, but you weren't at the top of your game. There's always-

Lareina - 00:10:24:

I wasn't even 30. There you go. I wasn't even 30.

Erica - 00:10:26:

So much headroom. Decades of headroom, right? So in that instance, there are only a couple of options. One- You rotate. To get into a different pool of opportunity within that company. Some companies are better at rotations. You know this better than I do. Some are better at lateral rotation, some are not. Or you lily hop. You go and you take a risk. And you go to a different company. And we see women telling us stories about going to a different company, either smaller, bigger, same size all the time. So I was with. A bunch of, um, SVPs in marketing. And they were in one company and they were just feeling like there was no way they were going to get the big. CMO job or kind of the next role. Several of them went to smaller companies or lateral companies or even kind of switched. You know, different industries. To get that next promotion. And it wasn't that the place they were working wasn't a great place. But they felt themselves at the top tapped out. So sometimes they're just, you know, there isn't space. You got to go, you got to make a new choice. Or Sometimes. You realize that you've been passed over a couple times. And that has real implications. Your wages are lower or it's more stagnant than your peers. You're not seeing the mentors and sponsors who are going to help you. Pivot. In all cases, it doesn't mean leaving a company, but you should ask yourself those questions. And then. Go on a couple of interviews and see what's out there. Worse comes worse, you stay where you are.

Lareina - 00:11:59:

Yes, that's what I tell everybody. Take the interview. Just take it. You never know. Oh my gosh. All right. You also talk about soft skills and hard skills. I'm taking a left turn here, right? And you say-

Erica - 00:12:10:

Oh, it's a good left turn.

Lareina - 00:12:11:

Yeah, you say treat soft skills like hard skills. And I want to know more about this because as women, I think we obviously are glorified for how amazing our soft skills are, right? Like women do better in empathy. We know this.

Erica - 00:12:23:

But talk to me about why did you decide to say like these are just as important at hard skills and like what soft skills should we really be emphasizing? Well, a couple of things. One is we know that as both men and women progress up that corporate ladder, you know, that idea that you're kind of going higher and higher, it's harder to get feedback. You don't get as much feedback. And the other thing is. By the time you're a senior executive, like you're a senior manager, you're a VP, or you're an SVP, you probably nailed the hard skills. You know, the hard things like making your sales quota or the coding that you need to be a software engineer or. You know, if you're in the CFO, like the controller and the accounting capabilities you need. All those kind of hard skills. You probably nailed them, especially if you got promoted a few times. The soft skills become really important. You know, how do you bring teams together? How do you listen to customers? And integrate that. A cross function. How do you build bridges, not walls? They're all of these types of things. And we've heard again and again that women don't get. As much feedback. As men. We see this in our data. Women don't get as much feedback. In particular, women don't get as much negative feedback. And you may say, wait. We don't want negative feedback. You know, we want supportive feedback. But negative feedback or constructive feedback is the best way to improve because you don't know a blind spot unless someone's like, by the way. And oftentimes those soft skills. Are some of those blind spots for anyone. But it just feels like women aren't getting clued up in this enough. There's a great story. Of a woman who started in theater. And she thought because she had like a mindset, because I'm a, in a creative industry and performing arts. It's okay to be disorganized. Because that's how creatives are. And so she had this underlying mindset. She wasn't even conscious of it. She goes on maternity leave and she's got this. Adorable baby. And, you know, if you have a baby under six months, you know, your windows to get out for a walk are very limited between feeding and, you know. Changing diapers. She couldn't get out for the walk because she couldn't organize all of her things. To get out for the walk. And she was like, this is not going to work. She looked at her daughter and she's like, this is not going to work. And she turned. This around and became an expert in organization. Ended up writing a book, ended up pivoting her career, ended up having a whole business on this, helping women. Organize themselves better. To succeed. And that's a soft skill. And so. I mean, you could take it into something that creates your own business or you can take some of these skills and use it to get promoted.

Lareina - 00:15:09:

I love that. And I always talk, I have a keynote where I always talk about confidence and, you know, how your brain is malleable and you can change it. And it's like, you may not think you're an organized person and you may not be today, but you can learn to be an organized person. You can learn to be somebody who understands a P&L. You can be somebody who is good at finances. And I think that we tend to take ourselves out of the game sometimes because we just say, well, numbers aren't my thing. I can't do math or like all the TikTok girl math videos are totally me. So I'm just never going to touch it. But do you ever-

Erica - 00:15:43:

Can we just pause on that math piece though? Because this is the whole point of experience capital. So if you went and, you know, for whatever reason, you decided you weren't going to be a math major, fine. And maybe you didn't take data science. Maybe you didn't take computer science. Maybe you didn't take engineering in college. Why does that preclude you? From being good at these. Skills and capabilities in the workplace today. And Erica, it does not, which is why we have a whole chapter that everyone can be a technologist. Everyone can be data-driven. You can learn this. This is the whole point of experience capital. Learn it on the job. You can, you're absolutely capable. Why would you limit your potential? And these skills, these. Technology skills and quantitative skills are incredibly important. For society and for jobs today.

Lareina - 00:16:35:

They are. And they are cross industries, cross functional. I mean, that's the thing is they apply everywhere. So it is key that you get them down. I will tell you why we say those things. It's because we don't like doing it. And it's sometimes a little bit hard for some of us. And so we just say, I can't, but that is a lie.

Erica - 00:16:54:

But that's a lie. And women can do hard things. We all, women and men can do hard things. But women. Do not shirk from challenge. And women show enormous resilience, like that inner power. You just kind of got to flip your mindset to say, I can do it now. Does it? Is it hard work? Will it feel uncomfortable to do those, you know, to be a technologist, for example? Yes, but you know what's so cool is with AI, It's a lot easier now.

Lareina - 00:17:24:

Yes, I know you do a lot of AI talk. And also, I wanted to tap in on that, right? Because if you're talking about gaining experience capital, but you don't like being bad at things, if you're getting on the AI train, you really need to start now because everybody's bad at it, okay? Everybody has zero to one year experience right now, right?

Erica - 00:17:42:

Well, exactly. Exactly. You are no more ahead or behind. It's only been two years since ChatGPT was released. And you know what the best thing about, from a kind of consumer perspective, the AI tools is, imagine if, you know, like, so I don't know very much about race car driving, but I do know that every time the race car goes around, there's a crew of people. And I'm always fascinated. Like, there's a crew of people making sure you have the right wheels. Everything's good. You need oil. Like, I don't know what you need. But like, whatever you need, that pit crew is there. And they are fast and they are focused. That's what like AI machines are like. Imagine if you had a pit crew. Helping you organize things. Learn things. Augment your understanding of things. With you all the time. And That's not about the machine taking your job. That's about you. Using the machine. And the capabilities to do your job and your life. The way you want. I mean, if you could save an hour to a day, Erica, where would you put it?

Lareina - 00:18:45:

Well, I'll tell you, yeah, I got my first taste of that during COVID, right? When remote work for HR became a thing. And I had an hour commute in the morning, you know, an hour commute in the evening. And I launched an entire freaking business with that time. I mean, it's incredible what you can do. You can.

Erica - 00:19:03:

You can. Or maybe you invested in your health. You get more sleep. I mean, there are all types of ways you invest the time. But the cool thing is these tools, they're very difficult. Like the technology is very difficult to create. But it's not difficult to use. Any language, any skill level. I have three kids. I might argue that my youngest, who's 10, maybe more capable. Of using generative AI than the 22 year olds. I mean, It's everyone. And it's so... Like, it is easy. And so let it help. You And it will change jobs. So the sooner you. You figure that out. And one of the cool things is I mean, the technology can do a lot, but you know your job, you know your craft. So in some ways, you're the director of how it can change and where it's going to add value.

Lareina - 00:19:54:

You're the director of the pit crew. Oh my goodness.

Erica - 00:19:56:

Absolutely.

Lareina - 00:19:57:

Lareina, I want to take another left turn, but this one into motherhood, because your book was the first one that I have seen it. Where you have argued that motherhood is a experience capital escalator. Like it helps us get there when most people are seeing it as a hindrance, right? Like people are scared to hire women who are about to have babies because what if they go on maternity leave for three months? So talk to me about that.

Erica - 00:20:24:

Yeah, I mean... We first wanted to debunk this idea that, you know, your career is over once you start having children. It's just not true. Now, if that's the road you take. You can certainly find someone where that happens, of course. But the idea is book a round-trip ticket. Book your ticket to parental leave, and then make sure you have a return ticket back to the workplace. And in coming back, you know, some of that early part of coming back, certainly it's not easy. And it's not easy to have a double shift at home, the vast majority of women. Tend to be primary caretakers of their family and all the household responsibilities in addition to whether they are the primary or secondary breadwinner. So we know. There's a double shift. But think about the multiplicative of the skills and the capabilities you're learning back to the soft stuff. The ability to multitask, the ability to do more things. The ability to be empathetic, you have to be very empathetic as a mother. How do all of those things increase the portfolio of your skills versus just the job and the quarterly? Kind of MBOs at your meeting. And so there is some optimism on that. The other thing we know is that women live longer than men. Women often may work longer, so you may have far more opportunities ahead of you than you imagine. After you have kids. The other thing is you just don't know what's around the corner. We have a story of an amazing woman. She was a high-powered lawyer. Done all the right things. She was in tech. And she decided to be a full-time mom. For three boys, raised them for 14 years. And then took a reboarding program after that. At LinkedIn and is an executive there now.

Lareina - 00:22:11:

I love those stories.

Erica - 00:22:12:

Right? I mean, And so. You would say, well, what's the measure of success? And if I were to say it's an accelerator to her career, you'd say, well, I mean, if she'd stay the whole time, maybe she could be a CEO. But also success isn't just the role. The job you have. Success is the total measure of your life. She's an amazing human. She's gotten to do everything. She's wanted to do. She's worked. She's taking care of the kids. She's. Led nonprofit things in San Francisco. There's a huge, rich tapestry of a career there. And so I just feel like. If we reframe. That this is... Going to net benefit us with some moments of pain, some valleys for sure. But we're going to get to a better, a bigger place. Why not?

Lareina - 00:23:04:

Oh my gosh. I love that you say success is the total measure of your entire life, because I think we so often hang it on a paycheck or a title or a promotion. But what I would ask you is like, if I'm a woman and I mean, I speak from my experience 10 years ago, I remember how scary it was to tell my employer I was pregnant. Right. What kind of advice would you offer up to women who are of the childbearing age who think they might be want to dip their toe in that water? Like, how can they work with their employers so that they also see it as that experience capital escalator?

Erica - 00:23:43:

Well, a couple of things, and you probably pioneered a lot of this in HR, is overall, benefits and programs and the types of formal things that HR does is much more grouped. So over the last decade, we see less differentiation, which is a good thing, between the HR policies and programs that companies have. Now, there will be exceptions. So someone listening is like, but that's not my company. Okay, so first of all, inform yourself, know exactly what kind of benefits, what kind of support. The second thing is networks are really critical. As much as you can have X number of weeks paid, On your return, one of the most important things will be your networks, people who help open opportunities. And it's way ahead of the point of promotion. It's things like, I'm going to put you, and I'll give you a really concrete example. At McKinsey. It won't surprise people that we travel a lot. We travel to where the projects are in life. And my first. Maternity leave, I was very junior. I was an associate. So it's kind of like bottom of the ladder, right? I started one nudge even lower. I started as a business analyst. It was a great job, amazing job. I had kids early, my first one. I wasn't even 30. And most of the people were traveling out of town. So here's what a sponsor did for me. I will help make sure that the first project you have back for maternity leave. Is local. We're going to really try. It may not be in your most passionate expertise area. But let's just try and keep you in town. That's an opportunity. That helped me kind of come back. Get myself a little more settled, rebuild. That's a network. That's not a policy that the company has. That's when you say, look, What's the number one thing I need? I need an opportunity and I need to stay local. That wasn't just my example. There are lots of examples you can apply to your life. So it's. Building a network, which starts before you go out on mat leave. Letting people know you will be back in six months or whatever it is. You're really excited. Then calling them a month before you come back, letting them know you're excited to be back. Showing some enthusiasm, some of that entrepreneurial hustle, another soft skill that we think is really important. And then, you know, and then the other thing is. You know, What if it takes you a little bit longer? It definitely, with kids, took me longer to become partner. Absolutely. But the sum total of what I had was so much more. You know, like try to stay focused on that. Were other people who didn't have kids and didn't take. The sum total of three years promoted faster than me. Yes, and I was finish for them, but still driven to keep going. Myself. It's okay.

Lareina - 00:26:22:

And I think the key part here, too, is like we all have our own grading system. Right. So like what works and what is successful to you could be very different for me, very different from Sue and Jane and everybody else out there. But what is, I got to ask, because we're coming up on our time here, girl. And there's so much good stuff.

Erica - 00:26:40:

Oh my gosh, it's flying by. Flying by.

Lareina - 00:26:41:

I know, but what is the most powerful piece of advice that you have gotten in your career? And how did it shape the way that you navigate leadership today?

Erica - 00:26:52:

I've gotten so much help. Just really grateful. I do think one powerful piece. Of advice. Has been if you make a mistake. Get up. Get back up. Try it again. And then if you make that mistake again, Back up, try it again, again. And I think, that, and plus this concept of entrepreneurialism, which just sounds like a really fancy word for taking initiative. I think that courage or the... Ability to just fail flat and then get back up and then say, okay, how do we keep building? I think that That is something that I just hope. Women who are at all levels have. And I hope they have. That feeling inside, but I also hope they're surrounded by people who reinforce it because It's never a dance you do by yourself. You're always doing it. With you know, with a boss, with peers, with people on your team. When you're surrounded by a team that's also supporting you, it's really helps.

Lareina - 00:28:05:

Yes, I think that is so well said. Well, Lareina, the book, like I said, it's incredible. I read a ton of these books and yours was the first one. I think I highlighted at least 79% of the pages, right? Like I think the words that I did not highlight were like, and an it's. So it is an incredible book. You and your co-authors did an amazing job. Thank you so much for doing the work here because we are never going to be shattering ceilings if we can't even get off the dang floor of that broken rung that we have. So thank you for the work you're doing. It was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much.

Erica - 00:28:42:

Thank you.