Cockpit Lessons on Imposter Syndrome with Michelle "Mace" Curran

What if the secret to overcoming imposter syndrome isn't getting rid of your fear, but learning to invert your perspective and use it as fuel?

In this episode of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors, Erica Rooney sits down with Michelle "Mace" Curran, a former F-16 fighter pilot and lead solo pilot for the US Air Force Thunderbirds. As only one of two women in history to hold that title, Michelle has flown inverted inches from her wingman at 500 mph—all while battling the same inner critic that many high-achieving women face in the boardroom.

Michelle shares how she moved from a shy, introverted high-achiever to a decorated combat veteran, revealing the mental discipline required to override survival instincts and the power of "call sign culture" in building psychological safety.

Inside the Episode:

• Training Over Instinct: Michelle explains how the "insane" maneuvers of an air show are actually the result of thousands of hours of repetition, and how that same building of competence is the foundation for confidence in any male-dominated career.
• The Survival Brain in the Boardroom: How to distinguish between real physical danger and the primal fear of social judgment. Michelle shares her "zoom out" method to get worst-case scenarios out of your head and onto paper.
• The "Costume" of Confidence: Michelle opens up about her early career struggles in Japan, where she felt like she had to wear a "Type A costume" to belong, and the shock to her identity when she realized she couldn't be a "golden child" on day one.
• The Inner Voice vs. The Verdict: A breakdown of how to identify your inner critic—Michelle’s looked like a "tactical older male pilot"—and why recognizing the source of that voice takes away its power.
• MACE: The Call Sign Story: The vulnerable story behind Michelle's call sign (Mock At Circle Entry) and how a near-catastrophic mistake involving 9 G-forces became her ultimate badge of honor.
• Call Sign Culture & Safety: Why having a nickname based on a mistake is actually a tool for psychological safety, encouraging a "debrief culture" where even the highest-ranking leaders openly admit their errors.
• Inverting Your Perspective: A look at Michelle’s book, The Flip Side, and how to use the "action creates confidence" loop to navigate moments where "the shit hits the fan."

If you’re waiting to "feel ready" before chasing your biggest dreams, this episode is the reality check you need to start taking action in the presence of doubt.

🔗 Resources:

• Get Michelle’s book: The Flip Side: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear into Your Superpower.
• Learn more about Michelle Curran at Upside Down Dreams.
• Connect with Erica Rooney on LinkedIn.

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Transcript

Erica: [00:00:00] Oh, welcome to the Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floor podcast. The podcast where we get real about the challenges women face in work, life and leadership. I'm your host, Eric Rooney, HR executive, keynote speaker and executive coach, and I'm on a mission to get more women into positions of power and keep them there.

Erica: This is the space where we call it the paradoxes, being told to lean in, but not too far to speak up, but not too loudly. Be ambitious, but not too ambitious. Does that sound familiar? Yeah, we're over all that here. We break down the sticky floors that keep us stuck from imposter syndrome, imper perfectionism to burnout and fear, and give you real strategies to shatter those glass ceilings once and for all.

Erica: So if you're ready to rewrite the rules, own your power, and take your career and life to the next level, you're in the right place. Now today's guest has proven that you can fly an F 16 Fighting Falcon at 500 damn miles per hour, fly [00:01:00] inverted inches from your wingman, and still struggle with imposter syndrome.

Erica: Riddle me that y'all Now, what I love is she's not just talking about courage. She's teaching us to invert our perspective and use the very thing that holds us back as our greatest fuel. Michelle Mace Curran is a former F 16 fighter pilot, a decorated combat veteran, and served as the lead solo pilot for the US Air Force Thunderbirds, which is only one of two women in history, y'all to hold that title.

Erica: So that's a pretty big deal. But she now leads Upside Down Dreams and is the author of the upcoming book, the Flip Side, how to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear Into Your Superpower. Now, here's what she knows. That courage is not the absence of doubt. It's the action. She understands this truth, that courage isn't the absence of doubt, it's action in the presence of it. Her mission is to help you stop letting your inner critic drive and start chasing down your biggest dreams. So, I'm gonna need you to get ready because today we are diving into the cockpit lessons on vulnerability.

Erica: Facing down [00:02:00] fear and how to turn your biggest mistakes into your leadership badge of honor. So Michelle, welcome to the podcast girl. We are here for it today. How are you?

Michelle: I am. Good. And just based on that intro you just gave, I know I'm in the right spot. This is the, this is my jam.

Erica: This is the

Michelle: talk about all the things I love to talk about.

Erica: Oh my gosh. I would also though just for a minute, like to talk about how flying upside down at 500 miles an hour inches next to your wingman gives me mad anxiety, and I'm not even in that plane.

Michelle: Yeah, that's a, that's a normal response. I would say. It's, uh, uncomfortable. It's scary even for someone who's done it again and again. It's just not a place that most humans operate in, but you

Erica: No. Oh my God. So.

Michelle: to it.

Erica: Yeah, but like riddle me this, right? What is this thought process then that you have when you're in that mode to override the survival instinct, which for me would be like to get the hell out of there. And then how do we as women apply that mental discipline [00:03:00] to maybe some high stakes meeting or negotiation in our career?

Michelle: Yeah, so people see the finished product. If they go to an air show, which is the 500 miles an hour, up to as close as 18 inches from another jet, it looks insane to the crowd. We definitely didn't start there. You know, we come in as experienced fighter pilots, but not having flown in the air show world, which is just such different type of flying and it is very much repetition.

Michelle: Like you are a professional athlete, like you are out there shooting free throw after free throw until you can't miss that is what we're doing for. Flight after flight for about four to four months leading up to the time when we actually go out in front of the public. So I always like to preface it with just like any other learned skill.

Michelle: It really is building that competence over time with a lot of hard work, a lot of practice, a lot of preparation, and that builds the skillset and. will often get the question from other women of like, [00:04:00] what would you tell a woman who's just starting her career in a really male dominated space? Because when I came into the Air Force, about 2% of fighter pilots were women.

Michelle: Now it's up to just about 4%. So

Erica: Woo. Look at that wild growth.

Michelle: 15 years later we're doing it. Um, so it is moving in the right direction, just very slowly. And I always say that. That ability to work your butt off and really focus on learning your job and getting as good as you possibly can at executing the thing that you're there to do, that is the foundation that everything else sits on.

Michelle: That your own confidence, your own belief in yourself, uh, the credibility and the respect of those around you, all of that is built off of that skillset of just not even proving you deserve to be there. 'cause I, I felt like I had to do that most of my career and I really hate that. But executing at the highest level that you're capable of.

Michelle: So I did focus on that one, the thunder with the thunderbirds. But there was still this survival instinct of, [00:05:00] of fear, of primal fear, of survival, really. And I think you have, you have two cases. You have situations where you actually are in danger, which was the case in the jet at different times, right?

Michelle: Like mistakes have real life catastrophic consequences. That same fear gets carried over into our life, into situations where we're not actually in danger. And I think a lot of times we don't differentiate between those two things. And so we let this primal brain that's been, you know, over thousands of years, trained to take on the worst case scenario as the most likely, because that's what kept us alive for so long.

Michelle: And we take that into. Opportunities that come up. We take it into conversations, into raising our hand or speaking up or going after something that other people might, you know, raise an eyebrow at. And so for me, a big thing I talk about is like zooming out and getting it out of your head. Getting out of that spiral and either [00:06:00] writing it down on paper like, Hey, what's the worst case scenario if I go after this thing and it goes bad, like if I fail, what will that look like? Or telling it to someone. If you have someone you can confide in and often just that step of getting it outta your head will make you realize that A, that worst case scenario is pretty unlikely. the one that you're really, really hanging onto that's keeping you from taking action might not even be realistic.

Michelle: It might be so like conflated, and then C, it gives you the chance to be like, okay, if that did happen, what can I do to be prepared to deal with it? And I can't guarantee that stuff's always going to go my way, but I can do what is in my control. I can focus on what's in my control to prepare myself to be able to weather that storm.

Michelle: And I think that perspective gives you a really empowering mindset where you're okay taking calculated risks that ultimately lead to growth.

Erica: Um. [00:07:00] I love that. I love that. I'd like to rewind just a little bit too. Did you always know that you wanted to be a fighter pilot, or did that just kind of evolve over time?

Michelle: It evolved over time. I was, I was a thrill seeker and adventurous child. Like I loved rollercoasters my whole life. I loved, you know, carnival rides spinning in circles and some other people are throwing up. I'm just like, let's go again. Um, and adventure and travel and all the things. Um, but I actually went to college as a criminal justice major because I wanted to be an FBI agent.

Michelle: As a teenager in high school, I was like, I'm gonna be an FBI agent. That sounds cool. So I did that, but I needed a way to pay for it. And so I applied for an Air Force ROTC scholarship, got one. And so when I graduated college, I was going to have to go into the Air Force on active duty to pay back that, that scholarship.

Michelle: So my plan was to do four years in the Air Force. Get out, apply to the FBI. About halfway through, I visited a base down in Florida, Tyndall Air Force Base, and I saw two fighter jets take [00:08:00] off full afterburner up close for the first time ever. And I was just awestruck goosebumps.

Erica: junkie just couldn't

Michelle: yeah. I was like, holy shit, how do I like forget the FBII have to try to go do that.

Michelle: And I know that was like a pivotal moment for me, that spark of inspiration. then I'm still kind of shocked because I was a, I was a high achiever, but I was also very shy, very introverted, and I struggled with a lot of self-doubt, especially at that age. I'm a little bit shocked even now, 20 years later, that I had the courage to not only pay attention to that spark, but then to be like, I'm gonna execute on this.

Michelle: Because so much has to happen between deciding you wanna be a fighter pilot and actually becoming one.

Erica: Hmm. I'm gonna go totally off script here, right? Because what I love about this, it's something I talk about when I do a lot of keynote. Is when I was a Chief people officer, I was just going about [00:09:00] my business and doing my day to day. I didn't realize like over time how. Just dull. The work was making me feel how drained.

Erica: And just over time, that's how I was feeling. And when I started getting into coaching and I was coaching executive women, it did not matter if I was finishing a coaching call on 9:00 PM on a Sunday after putting my kids to bed. I was lit up. And so when you're talking about like the inspiration, that spark of inspiration in paying attention to it.

Erica: I think sometimes it's divine intervention, whatever you wanna call it, that leads us to paying attention to it. But like I implore everybody, like lean in hard. If you, if not from just hearing that it's happened to mace, it's happened to me. Like pay attention to those nudges from the universe because that will direct you to something awesome.

Erica: At least that's what I believe.

Michelle: Yeah, and I've had a few key times in my career where that has happened. You know that first one with just jets in general again [00:10:00] later on with applying to become a Thunderbird pilot. And then again, chapter three, with leaving the Air Force and walking away from what most people consider a dream job to do what I'm doing now, and every one of those.

Michelle: I felt that same pull, and I was also brave enough for just a second to take some sort of action towards it and set the wheels in motion.

Erica: Brave enough. But if you just do it the first time, then you can recognize and know the second time that spark hits or the third time, like you know, that you can take that risk or you know, you can dip your toe in and kind of test it out. But let's talk a bit about the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome because we.

Erica: We sprinkled it into the intro a little bit. You mentioned you struggled with it as a kid, then you go and you're like, I'm gonna do the most male dominated thing and join the Air Force and fly these fighter jets. So

Michelle: Right. Okay.

Erica: what did, what did that self-doubt look like for you? Like how did it manifest?

Erica: How did it hold you [00:11:00] back? And then looking now, like how do you help other women distinguish between that inner critic. You know what's real and what's not.

Michelle: Yeah, so it definitely evolved over time. You know, when I was younger, very early on college and ROTC, brand new to pilot training, I. I always felt like I could execute confidently in flying the airplane and like doing those hands-on type of things or, you know, I had really good grades in college. I could execute in that, that arena.

Michelle: But what I struggled with was when I had to speak up, I was like the shy part of me. I would be in this, this Air force environment where I knew being assertive, being Type A, being what is, you know, classically viewed as a leader. Was rewarded and so stuff would come up where I knew I should raise my hand and be like, yeah, I'll take charge of the formation, or I'll take on that project.

Michelle: And the internal of [00:12:00] you might fail in front of everyone, like what are, like, what makes you think you're so special to do that? All of that was so strong that for a really long time I wouldn't do it even though I knew I should, like my ultimate goal was served by. Taking advantage of those opportunities, but I was so afraid of all of these things that I wouldn't do it.

Michelle: And fast forward to actually flying the F 16, getting to my first operational unit. Now, I had done well on paper in every course I had been, I had a high GPI did great in pilot training. Got one of two fighter jets for a class of 25 students. Like so competitive, I'm defying odds and my own expectations again and again, which.

Michelle: Should build my confidence, and I think it did when it came to like executing a very straightforward, laid out syllabus or test or something like that. But what got a lot harder as I got into an actual fighter squadron was this element of belonging and figuring out

Erica: Hmm.

Michelle: how do I [00:13:00] establish my footing in this world that is very male dominated, is very type A, like you are rewarded for being.

Michelle: Confident and sometimes people would be confident or come across as confident when they might not even be. And that felt like I had to put on this, this, you know, costume and play, dress up and go to work, put on my flight suit and be like, flip a switch. I'm gonna pretend I have it all together. I know what I'm doing.

Michelle: I don't need anyone's help. I'm a lone wolf. Like I have to over prove that I deserve to be here. And I did that for a long time in my first assignment, which was in Japan. But meanwhile, I felt so isolated and I felt like I was struggling with, with separation. In hindsight, I was probably a very average new fighter pilot, but I was now in a world where everyone around me was experienced and it was going to take years to get good at this new job.

Michelle: And the only way to get good on good at it was to [00:14:00] go through the crucible, right? Like to just get in the repetition and the experience. And I had never really. Failed at something or been bad at something. And so it was this massive shock to my identity, almost like if I'm not the person that gets good at it very quickly and I'm not the high achiever and I'm not the golden child, like who am, like, why do I even deserve to be here?

Erica: Mm.

Michelle: Obviously it's unrealistic. They're gonna step into a career field like that. That's just very difficult, very demanding, and be good on your first day. That's, that's illogical. But yet that's what I expected of myself. And I think

Erica: What? I love that you use that word because everything you're saying is landing. I'm like, yep, been there. Know that feeling. Check, check, check. And then you use the word illogical and I'm like, well damn.

Michelle: Because right, we can see that when we're outside of it because we don't have these emotions clouding our judgment. But when you're in it, it's really hard to keep that perspective. And it took me years to [00:15:00] gain that, and that's one of the things that I like to help other people do. Now. Is to identify that inner critic because for the longest time, even fast forward to flying with the Thunderbirds and then leaving and doing what I'm doing now.

Michelle: I realized that a lot of my decisions were being run through this filter of this other voice that was again, like what makes you so special that you could get on a stage and tell your story, or who's gonna read a book if you write it, or like. You shouldn't share that on social media. That's like only for our community of fighter pilots.

Michelle: How dare you put it out there into the world? And I was like, when I actually was Zoom, able to zoom out and identify that voice and separate it from myself, it gave me the ability to recognize it for what it was and like why? I always like to say it's just an inner voice. It's not a verdict. It's not something you have to take as fact.

Michelle: It's not something you have to listen to. It is a combination of your own insecurities. With [00:16:00] pressures that have been put on you at different points. And so now I'll run people through a workshop where I'm like, what does your inner critic sound like? If you had to draw it or describe its physical features, what would it look like? Like who does it come from? A specific person or a specific time in your life? And I realize mine was society's expectation of what an ideal fighter pilot was. So it was like this older male, super tactical fighter pilot that I would never be. I was never living up to that standard for many reasons. Yes.

Michelle: And I've had other people share. They're like, oh, it's, I'm in my fifties and I realized that it's my mom who I was never good enough for growing up. Or it's a coach who embarrassed me when I was on the football team, or it's my first boss who was verbally abusive. Or it's the mean girls at the office.

Michelle: And most of the time the people that have created this inner dialogue that's holding that person back. Aren't even actively there in their life saying those things anymore, but it's left this [00:17:00] imprint on them for years or sometimes decades. And so just being able to recognize that and identify it gives you an opportunity to have a choice in what you do with it.

Michelle: Yeah.

Erica: Mm. Yeah, I'm a big fan in, in stopping. Part of my process is stop name, ask, and answer, and pivot. And the very first piece is really about stopping and recognizing like, what are those thoughts that I'm even having? What are those feelings? Because without that first step of awareness, like you just run through those uncomfortable feelings because they suck and you don't wanna feel 'em.

Erica: But if you sit in that uncomfortableness for a bit, and if you start to peel back the onions, like what is so miraculous about that is you can start to see the patterns in your life where you start to show up in that way. And then you can start to break those patterns. But if you don't actually stop and like you say, you're separating the voice, you're pulling it apart, you're recognizing it and pulling awareness to it, then you can move forward and actually do something about the situation.[00:18:00] 

Michelle: Right. And I think after you do that step, if you have someone that you can talk to it about and be like, Hey, I'm really struggling with these feelings of like doubting if I deserve to be here or like I'm struggling with how I'm supposed to belong in this world, or whatever your version is. That's what I, I talk about, you know, identifying it, recognizing it, and normalizing it because I almost guarantee that other person has experienced that exact same thing.

Michelle: It might look slightly different, but they have experienced the feeling of not being good enough, of being of an imposter of self-doubt. And when you get it out of your brain and you say it out loud, they're gonna be like. That's totally normal. You're in a very demanding environment and you're brand new.

Michelle: You're, you have to be okay with sucking for a little while, and that can be really hard. But once you have someone that acknowledge that, they just like make it okay for you to feel that way and still move forward.

Erica: And not only that, but you quit ruminating on it. Like, I think it was last week, I was like in total anxiety mode stressing out to my husband because I had this big New York [00:19:00] trip. I had two panels and then a new keynote that I'm doing. And I was like, I've got this new keynote and that's what I'm freaking out about.

Erica: And I mean, you know, like. It doesn't matter if you have a month to prepare, you're like, there's not enough time. And I've said this to two different people and the two things that they said to me were, was number one, Erica, you're, you're a pro. You've done this. Like, yes, it's your first time doing this keynote, but you've done first keynotes before.

Erica: And then the second one was you still have time. And it's like when you get yourself up in those anxiety spirals. Passing it. A little bit of those anxiety concerns to a friend or an accountability person or a partner who can then mirror back to you the true reality of what's going on might give you that breath to reset.

Erica: And I think that's so key. But Michelle, you talk about a call sign now. I was reading about this. I was like, I don't know what the hell that is. Is it good? Is it bad? So for me, for the listeners, [00:20:00] tell me what is a call sign? Is it good or bad? Do I want one, do I not? And then I talk about how you have call sign culture.

Michelle: Yeah. Uh, yes to is the answer to all of your questions. It's

Erica: And yes, and yes, I know.

Michelle: right. So yeah, I feel I have like a general idea of fighter pilot call signs because Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick are like such. You know, pop culture phenomenon. So they're like, oh, we understand, like Maverick Goose. It's just a nickname.

Michelle: But most people don't know that we don't get to pick them. We have no say in them at all. They're given to you at your first operational unit. So mine was in Japan, like I mentioned, and they're given to you by your peers after you've been there for a few months based on something dumb that you did. So it's, I wouldn't use the word

Erica: So now I'm just living in a perpetual state of anxiety, wondering what the hell's my name gonna be for three

Michelle: Oh, right. Every mistake you make, you're like, oh, am I gonna get named after this one? And like I said, you're new and you are making mistakes every [00:21:00] single flight. So it is giving the fact that they wait three to four months to name you, that just gives them a ton of fodder, right? Like.

Erica: very mean.

Michelle: Now they have so much to work with.

Michelle: Um, so that's to preface it. And so I was given mine, you know, about four months into my time in Japan and it's an acronym. So my call sign is Mace. And I'll tell you a abbreviated version of the story 'cause it's, it can be quite detailed. But basically I was out on a training flight doing practice dog fighting.

Michelle: So me and my jet, my instructor, and the other one. The whole goal is for me to get my aircraft behind his so I can gun him. We don't have live weapons loaded up, obviously, but it is a very fundamental building block skill as a fighter pilot to do this air to air fighting. And so I had done it before I, I had done it, you know, just a few times in training, just enough to be dangerous because it wasn't my first time where I was creating habit patterns from scratch.

Michelle: I wasn't nearly [00:22:00] experienced enough to be any good at it. And so I went out there. I accidentally went above the speed of sound, literally did not even realize it was happening. Airborne. I didn't, I didn't notice it until after we landed and we reviewed the cockpit footage. Um, so people were like, how does that happen?

Michelle: Nothing exciting happens in the cockpit when you go supersonic. Mock number, which is just like another way to measure your air speed just goes from 0.99 to 1.0 and that, and you're like, okay, we're supersonic. So there's nothing in the cockpit that really like, is like, Hey, dumb dumb. You're going faster than the speed of sound.

Michelle: So I did that and because I was going so fast, I could never turn tight enough to point at my instructor, like, imagine you're driving your car at 60 miles an hour and you need to make a turn that requires 30 miles an hour. You just can't do it. So same thing in the jet, but I. Sure tried and so when I rolled and pulled back on the stick, the F 16 can pull nine times the force of gravity. So we call those G's. It can pull nine G's. So however much you weigh, multiply that by nine. [00:23:00] That is the force that I'm feeling. That is very normal to experience, but for very brief periods because it is very hard on your body and you can actually pass out from it because it pushes the blood out of your head 'cause it's going from your head towards your

Erica: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: So it's a big deal. It's, it's dangerous, it's hard, but we do it on a regular basis. So that happened, but then because I had all of that air airspeed, I was going much faster than I was supposed to be. There's so much energy on the aircraft that I hit nine Gs and then I held it. For a full 360 degree turn so much longer than normal, and I almost blacked out because of it.

Michelle: I almost went unconscious. I had full light loss, which means I couldn't see anything fully lost my vision, but I was still conscious and that I could hear, I was still aware of what was happening. So that is about as close as you can get actually g locking. And if you g lock in a jet where there's only one pilot.

Michelle: Obviously very bad things can happen and it, and it [00:24:00] has in the past. So that all happened. Uh, we landed, we reviewed the tapes. I was like, how did I get going so fast? It was, it was a good learning experience because I took a lot away from that, that I was gonna do differently next time I went out and did it.

Michelle: But I also took away a lot of shame and embarrassment of like a, I'm not per performing up to standards. I did not do well on this flight. B, I could have killed myself. Like that is no joke. This is taken very seriously. And then I get a call sign from it a couple months later and MACE stands for mock at circle entry, which is pilot jargon heavy, but mock is breaking the mock, which is the speed of sound.

Michelle: And then at Circle entry, circle entry was just the maneuver that I was doing. So cool. Sounding name, not such a cool experience, but you know, it's one of those that. It's fun to tell now because it's, it's a story I tell during my keynote and people are just like, like, what? What happened? Wait, what?

Erica: I mean, you took me on a whole [00:25:00] rollercoaster of emotions there, but here I am just sitting here thinking like Mace is a cute little nickname.

Michelle: People always think I pepper sprayed someone. They're like, did you pepper spray a guy at a bar or something? And I'm like, not yet. But like you're,

Erica: I still got time.

Michelle: you're saying

Erica: got time.

Michelle: Yeah. That

Erica: Okay, so we know what call signs are. Then we know you don't get to choose your call sign. So talk to me about the call sign culture and like creating psychological safety.

Michelle: Yeah. And so face value, that seems like hazing. You're like, that's just making fun of fun of a new person in your unit. Like what good could come from that? And I did feel some not great emotions around it when I first was given it. I was like, okay, great. It sounds cool, but I was still very embarrassed by that flight specifically.

Michelle: So it took me a little bit of time for that to go away. Then I kind of realized as I looked around my squadron, you know, I'm one of the youngest least experienced people at that time, and there's all of these pilots that I look up to that are great leaders, that are amazing [00:26:00] tacticians, just so good at their job.

Michelle: Every single one of them has a call sign, and so this like kind of ceremonial naming of new people. It's like an acknowledgement of. We see the work you've done and we see how hard it is to get to this spot. And like you are now one of us. Welcome to the club. And we live in a world where everyone makes mistakes and that is okay, but what's not okay is hiding them or not taking the time to learn from them.

Michelle: And so it goes along with this debrief culture that fighter squadrons have, where after every single flight, no matter how complex or how simple the flight was. We go in that room afterwards, we pull up the cockpit recordings. We look at everything from the briefing before the flight to the taxi out to the execution of the mission, and we're like, what went well?

Michelle: So we could replicate that again and not just get lucky, but most of the time is spent on where were the errors made? Like why did our [00:27:00] mission fail? Or why, how could it have gone smoother? And no matter if you're the youngest, lowest ranking person. Or you are the most well-respected, highest ranking person in that room.

Michelle: Your mistakes are all talked about the same. And so when you see someone who has a decade more experience than you who might be the squadron commander or even the commander of the entire base, sit there and be like, yeah, I was. I misprioritized here. I was a little bit late. I should have done this. I'll do this differently next time. When that is modeled from the top down, that gives everyone the permission and the psychological safety. To just openly discuss that stuff, and that is how you get better faster, because none of that's brushed under the rug. Every mistake is a learning opportunity.

Erica: There's something really comforting about how you really made that pivot from like, it's this name that makes fun of you to actually, it's a really powerful indicator of how we embrace failures and how we grow from them [00:28:00] and move along and like that. It's not. It's not such a a me thing. I think so often with mistakes, we always think like, I'm the only one that did that stupid thing, or nobody else would ever.

Erica: But when you start to hear all of the stories, which I'm sure makes for excellent dinner conversation with a lot of your friends, figuring out what they all are for the first time. Um, I think that's really powerful. But let's talk about your book, which by the way, every time I see it I'm like, god dammit, which way is up

Michelle: yeah. Yes,

Erica: having to turn it around.

Erica: Which is the whole point, but it's called the flip side, how to invert your perspective and turn fear into your superpower. So tell me all about the book. I'm super excited. I haven't dug into it, but it's on my coffee table.

Michelle: The number of people I've taken pictures with, and either I've held my own book upside down, or the person I'm taking a photo with has held it upside down and I'm like, it's okay. It's, it's reversible, it's fine. Uh, but yes, my head is on the front upside down, so that's why it's [00:29:00] confusing. So, you know, I was already giving keynote and.

Michelle: You only can tell so many stories and pull out so many lessons in a 45 minute keynote on stage. And I was getting such amazing feedback and people were like, I feel like you probably have a ton more stories. Like I wanna, I could have listened to that forever. And I'm also on social media and I'm sharing these little bite-size stories from the cockpit, things that I learned from them.

Michelle: The call sign story being one example, and people are just loving it. They're like, this is such a unique. Peek behind the curtain that we don't really get into such a high performance world. But what you talk about is so damn relatable. Like I see myself in your words, even though our backgrounds are so different.

Michelle: And so I started to think about like, do I have enough for a book? And three years later, the flip side's here. And so each chapter is a story most from the cockpit of you, from just life in general, but it's some like edge of your seat. Like I almost g locked in the jet. [00:30:00] and another Thunderbird pilot almost had a head on collision during a practice, or I hit a vulture and put two holes through the side of my airplane.

Michelle: And so these are wild experiences that very few people will have, but it's not, the point of the book is not just a shock and awe people with these stories, although I think storytelling is like the best vehicle for getting a point across. But then the bulk of the chapter is. Either what the Air Force equipped me with to deal with those types of situations or what that situation itself taught me. And it's like what tools and lessons can we pull from this that anyone can use when they're struggling with self-doubt, when they're afraid, when they have a moment where the shit hits the fan and they have to figure out how to respond. And like so much of it is kind of a big through line in there.

Michelle: Besides fear, obviously is reacting versus responding. Focusing on what you have control of and, you know, keeping your end goal in mind. [00:31:00] And, and I think that's something that we can do, whether it's someone cutting us off in traffic and we feel that surge of anger or it's losing our job, right? Like we are all gonna face situations where stuff doesn't go, how we would like it to go. And I didn't want the book to just be me talking about anecdotes of my personal experience. So almost every chapter. Sites, studies gets into human psychology, into neuroscience, and I really wanted to give it some scientific credibility behind why our brains operate the way they do in those situations.

Michelle: And so it's just a really unique combo of memoir meet, self-help, and the feedback has just been more than I could have ever imagined. It's been

Erica: I love it. I love when we tie things to science because it's not just enough for me to be like. Say a mantra, you'll feel better. Like, I wanna know why that actually is, and then if you tell me the why, I will go and say whatever mantra I need to say all day. But one of these questions that I have [00:32:00] for you, and I'm trying to figure out the exact right way to phrase it.

Erica: It because it's like, I know, I know the high level answer, but I wanna hear the details of it, is I imagine that people come up to you all the time and they're like, well, you can't have like any self-doubt anymore or any fear because like, look at all these things that you've done. You, you have conquered it all.

Erica: But like, I'm gonna guess you're gonna say you still experience a little bit of self-doubt and fear every now and then. So my question is like, what, what instills that in you and how do you move through that?

Michelle: Yeah, it still happens regularly. I mean, I think it's become much less debilitating than it used to. Right now I see it for what it is, and I recognize it so fast when it starts to happen, and I'm like, oh no, like slow your roll like this. That is not helpful. This is not welcome, and I. We'll go very quickly to like evidence-based where I'm like, a new keynote that you talked about is a great example because I'm in the process of doing that now since the [00:33:00] book has come out

Erica: Uh, I don't like it. It's not fun.

Michelle: no, it's not.

Michelle: And my current keynote, I love it and I've given it a hundred times and it's so fun now because I know I'm not gonna forget what I was about to say and I get to joke around and be so comfortable and the you have to pay to play to get to that level with a new one, right? Like it just takes some repetition.

Michelle: And it's stressful at first because you worry that you might have the deer in the headlights of like, what's my next paragraph? And so now when I see that happening, I'm like, okay, that is a very normal human feeling because I'm about to do something that's new, not new as in, I've never done done a keynote, but we're like taking a step back a little bit.

Michelle: We're a beginner when it comes to this speech, but then I also now can look at. What's my track record of success? What experience do I have? What do I know I can do to be prepared as, as prepared as possible for this? Because I've done that before and so I think I'm able to like. Dig around in my toolkit and pull out the things that [00:34:00] can help me be very prepared and ready to do this new uncomfortable, scary thing that the doubt's coming from in just a much different way than I could when I was younger.

Michelle: I just didn't even have the perspective to think about it in that way. I just kind of accepted it and was just like, I'm just nervous. I don't feel good about this, and I didn't dive any deeper into it. And that perspective has allowed me to move through that much quicker.

Erica: Oh my gosh. All right. Well, last question, best question. If you could go all the way back in time to the Michelle, before she got her call sign, before she even saw the Thunderbirds, but the Michelle who was experiencing that self-doubt, what piece of advice would you give her today knowing everything you know now?

Michelle: Yeah, two things. The first is to drop that like shield of perfection and find someone to talk to about it. That is just. Massively game changing to not ruminate on it. Like you said, not isolate, not feel like you have to be a [00:35:00] lone wolf. And if you're not a lone wolf, then you're clearly not strong enough to be in the world that you're playing in.

Michelle: That was the mentality I had as a young fighter pilot. Second is that this idea that I'm gonna feel ready before I go do a big thing is a myth. Like I did not feel ready when I raised my hand and was like, I wanna compete for a pilot slut. I did not feel ready when I walked in the door to be a new fighter pilot.

Michelle: I did not feel ready when I submitted my application for the Thunderbirds, and I didn't feel ready the first time I got on the stage to do a keynote. And the key is just to, except that that is normal in the learning phase, and to not let it keep you from taking action, the action will create the confidence not the other way around.

Erica: Yes. Amazing. And then if you're like me and you still really wanna make sure that you do the thing, you do the thing that can't be undone, whether that's investing some money, telling your bestie, who's gonna make sure you do it, like you gotta do the thing that's gonna keep that ball in motion. [00:36:00] So, oh my goodness, Michelle, that was amazing.

Erica: Y'all, if today's conversation lit a fire under you, here's your next move. Don't keep it to yourself. Share this episode with a friend, drop a review and let's keep the conversation going. And how about you get this girl's book? Okay? You can get it on Amazon and anywhere books are sold, but y'all need to remember this.

Erica: Your potential is limitless and the only thing standing in your way are those sticky floors, but you have the power to break through them. So go out there, take up some space, and let's shatter some ceilings together.