Lead with Heart and Grit with Tracy Nolan

What if the "niceness" you were taught as a child is the very thing holding you back from a billion-dollar seat at the table?

In this episode of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors, Erica Rooney talks with Tracy Nolan, a Fortune 100 executive and Senior Vice President at Humana. Tracy’s journey is a masterclass in breaking barriers—from being one of the few women at an elite engineering school to leading 12,000 people through the historic Sprint/T-Mobile merger. She reveals the subtle "sticky floors" that high-achieving women often miss, like the habit of "hosting" meetings instead of leading them.

Join them as they discuss how to stop "man-spreading" your notebooks, the power of being the "only" in the room, and why being called "intimidating" is often just a code word for being effective.

Inside the Episode:

• The Hostess Trap: Tracy shares a pivotal moment at Verizon where she was praised for "setting up the room" rather than her billion-dollar results, and how she learned to stop volunteering for the "office housework."
• Commanding the Space: Practical tips for shifting your physical presence—from how you carry your notebook to literally "spreading out" at the conference table to claim your right to be there.
• The "Caring" Competitive Advantage: How Tracy defied medical advice to "stop caring so much" and discovered that leading with heart and vulnerability actually accelerated her climb to the C-suite.
• The "Only" in the Room: Navigating the pressure to be the smartest person in the room of 21 men, and why over-preparing can actually make you appear less confident.
• Bitchy vs. Effective: A candid conversation on the double standards of female leadership and why it isn't your responsibility to regulate the insecurities of others who find you "intimidating."
• Vulnerability as a Tool: Why showing your team your human side—even taking a "mental health break"—creates a safe space for them to do their best work.
• The Motherly Mantra: A touching look at the universal advice both Tracy and Erica received from their mothers: "This too shall pass."

🔗 Resources:

• Learn more about Tracy’s work with Dress for Success.
• Connect with Erica Rooney on LinkedIn.

The AI GAP: Women, AI and the Next Great Leap Forward -https://amzn.to/3OAXAdL 

Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors - The Book: https://amzn.to/3YDS10f

Connect with me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericarooney/

Join our Facebook Group!: https://urlgeni.us/facebook/fromNOWtoNEXTtribe https://www.facebook.com/joinHERCollective.ER 

Find me on Instagram: https://urlgeni.us/instagram/EricaAndersonRooney

And YES — I’m on TikTok!: https://www.tiktok.com/@ericaandersonrooney

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floor podcast. The podcast where we get real about the challenges that women face in work life and leadership. I'm your host, Erica Rooney, HR executive, keynote speaker and executive coach, and I'm on a mission to get more women into positions of power and keep them there.

This is the space where we call it the paradoxes, being told to lean in, but not too far to speak up, but not too loudly. Be ambitious, but not too ambitious, if that sounds familiar to you. You're in the right place. But here we break down the sticky floors that keep us stuck from imposter syndrome and perfectionism to burnout and fear, and give you real strategies to shatter those glass ceilings once and for all.

So if you're ready to rewrite the rules, own your power, and take your career and life to the next level, you're in the right. Place. All right, y'all get ready to meet an incredible woman who's been turning corporate turbulence into [00:01:00] opportunity for decades, y'all. Today's guest is a Fortune 100 executive, a board director and change catalyst, who was the first woman to helm Verizon's upstate New York region and later guided more than 12,000 people through the historic Sprint T-Mobile merger.

And. If any of y'all know me, y'all know I also spent a decade at Verizon, so we are kindred spirits here now, senior Vice president at Humana, she leads multi-billion dollar healthcare initiatives while championing equity for veterans and mentoring the next generation of women leaders from transforming telecom retail from the ground up to reshaping organizational culture with heart and with grit.

She is proof. You don't have to choose between compassion and decisive action. Y'all. Please welcome Tracy Nolan to the table. Tracy, how are you? 

I'm great, Erica. Thank you for having me on this podcast. I was so excited. I just, [00:02:00] the name of your podcast alone was like, yes, I need to join Erica and have a conversation.

Oh my God. It is such a sticky name for lack of better words, but I love this because. Our lives have so many red threads connecting us from Verizon to your work at Dress for Success, and even some friends who work where you are now. And so I am so excited for this conversation, but I would love to kick it off just by asking you what inspired you to pursue leadership in your field and how did your upbringing or your education really shape your ambition?

It's so funny, Erica. 'cause if you would've asked me, like growing up what I was gonna do, I thought I would be a woman with like five kids, six kids. I would be a school teacher and I would not be doing what I was um, doing today. And you know, life just takes those changes and chances and, um, you know, I.

Started outta college in, in retailing. And I [00:03:00] just love the, most people think retailing, clothing, retailing's all about just selling. But it was like the operations, it was the marketing, it was the HR piece. It was like the whole operations of like owning, you know, p and l and being able to, uh, make a difference and, you know.

Putting at the center of it, of course is customers, you know, having somebody walk out that knew they were gonna go into an interview and they not only had, you know, bought a suit or, or a blouse, but they knew head to toe what they were gonna wear. So I'm always like putting the customer in the middle and making sure they have whatever product it is, they have everything that they're gonna use with it.

And it just kind of blossomed, right? It just started with. The focus on customers and on our employees. And then from there it just kind of, you know, I just kind of moved up and each role was, um, taking on a new challenge. And I am, I'm a challenge seeker. I guess I'm one that runs two challenges. I don't [00:04:00] run away, but has to start with a little bit of confidence that it's okay to not always succeed.

And I think we as women have such a hard time with that. 

Uh, yeah, I would say we do speaking from personal experience, but I would love to ask you, and I think we all have these self-imposed feelings on what we think is possible, you know, and you said way back in the day when you were a kid, you never would've imagined this life that you're leading now.

So I would love to hear from you, what was that first glass ceiling that you really like? When you look back, you recognize that, wow, I really crashed through that one. 

Um, I would say that I, you know, I seem to break barriers. Um, even when I kicked my college, I went to, you know, we were a family that went to liberal arts schools.

We'd go in and, you know, with that major, and I was very determined to go to a, the best school that I got in and, uh, get a [00:05:00] bachelor's of science, um, really focus on doing something. And I went to a school where the ratio was. Six to one, six men to every one woman. And it was in engineering school. I wasn't even taking engineering, but my family was like, what are you doing?

Like, is this really what you wanna do? And, and then, you know, I, so I, I kind of went to, I. Started with going to a college that wasn't even anything like, you know, it was the hardest school I got into. I knew I was gonna be challenged being around, you know, six men, which might sound kind of fun actually, you know, kind of fun, but Right.

But in a, in, in like the coldest spot in. State, New York. Right. On the Canadian border, right? Like, so I, I look at that and that was kind of a start of like, I'm gonna challenge myself to do things that I didn't know. And I went from being a pretty, you know, pretty good student in co in high school to being surrounded by all these people were so intelligent that I was like, [00:06:00] oh my gosh, I am average at best, you know, from a, from a educational perspective.

So I think that was the first one. Um. You know that I, that I broke, um, you know, that I really stepped out and did something different. So 

what school did you go to? You didn't even tell us that. 

So, Clarkson University Division one Hockey School, right? Mm-hmm. Um, uh, so, you know, we didn't have, that was, that was the big thing.

And that's where I. Started to love hockey, but, um, it was a tough school. All my, all, all, everybody I, you know, roomed with were electrical engineers, chemical engineers, and there I was an accounting major and, um, you know, I, I, but I also started our first sorority. Um, they did not have any sororities at the school, only fraternities.

So I was a founding member of a sorority and, um, I, you know, so I was. Gathering women at that time together. So we would have a sorority and we bought a house in the time that we were there. [00:07:00] So, you know, and I was of course the, the vice, uh, vice president or Vice Aon of, of our sorority. So again, I just started that leadership kind of in college, even while going to the school.

That's such a good story, Tracy. I love it. And like I was thinking back as you were answering, I was like, well man, Erica, that's a great question. What was your first glass ceiling? Yeah, and I think for me, looking back, it was. Like breaking the six figure mark. Like I just never thought in my life that I would ever make more than a hundred thousand dollars.

Like that just seems so far off and unattainable to me. And so I love sharing moments like this because it's like we all have to start somewhere. We don't just have this leadership prowess in us, and we're not just bold and we don't just go for it. So I'd love to ask you, Tracy, like what are some of the traits that you think really helped you, and then how do you think the [00:08:00] women today can harness that to shatter whatever ceiling is, you know, self-imposed over their own heads?

So. You know, it's, it's super interesting 'cause I, I would say I grew up in a family of, you know, being prim and proper and, um, and that whole politeness thing became kind of part of, uh, part of my, you know, way. I was way, I was not only home, but at work and. Um, you know, I think at times that held me back actually, because I was the one that was trying to arrange the room, or I was the one that was going to getting water.

And it was like one day I was just like, why am I doing this? Like, why like other people aren't coming in and making sure they're coming in 'cause they've got. They've been invited to this meeting. So I just started to really hone in on that. Um, if you're invited to a meeting or you're part of a meeting, then you are there to be part of the meeting and not [00:09:00] to bring in kind of, um, all the things that I kind of learned, like hostess of the most is in all those pieces and said, you know, I earned the right to be here and they have a right.

I have a right. I had to make myself believe that. I understand that they have a right to have me in this meeting, but I also have a right whether I wanna be there or not. And when I started kind of flipping the switch on, not flipping the switch, but feeling like, oh my gosh, it's so nice that they invited me to, I earned this, right?

Like I earned this. I am respected, I'm coming in. That's when it really kind of was one of those little switches that was like, wow, this is empowering. And I empowered myself. I are, the company already empowered me to be there, but as women, I think sometimes that that nicety and that way of being brought up was actually holding me back.

Uh, I would a hundred percent agree. Same thing, like I grew up in the south with a [00:10:00] stepmother in the junior league, which if you're not familiar with the Junior League. It is like historically this very waspy group of women and it's much different in many locations. So I wanna not, I'm just speaking in generality people.

Okay. But it was all about putting on the perfect party and having the right, you know, tableware set out. And that was really impressed upon me as something that was important. And just you talking got me thinking how we still are so. Programmed to not even recognize this. And I hosted an internal training at a corporation not too long ago, and we had lunch and we were eating lunch while we were doing this training.

And after like everybody kinda went back to their desk, one man came back in and he was like, all right, what do you need help with? Cleaning up? And I was flabbergasted. Did that this man was coming in to offer to help me clean up the table, which also, let's be clear, wasn't my job. [00:11:00] But we need more men like that, right?

We need more people like that who are stepping up to be true equals. 

I, I will tell you that I was, when I was at Verizon, I was in the Midwest and my boss used to say, trace, you set up like there was a big meeting coming up. You're so good at making sure people are sitting in the right place and setting the room up for success.

Can you go down now here? I'm running a billion dollar organization for them. I'm being asked to go set up the room so that it's affected. And after the meeting was over and I presented like on my business, afterwards, somebody came up and didn't say, Hey, great presentation, great results, trace. They said, you did such a great job setting this meeting up for success.

And I, I stepped back and I was like. That's what you're gonna remember about me. Like that's not what I want you to remember about me. I want you to remember about the kick ass stuff I'm doing here in this market and how I'm like changing around and moving it to number one in market share. Not that I can set up a [00:12:00] meeting, but I, I take accountability for that because.

I'm the one who was like, like volunteering for it. Right? And, and there's no men doing that. There was not a si, you know, there was not a single man. And then I'm staying afterwards and I'm arranging and picking up the, you know, 'cause I'm thinking I'm doing something nice for the people who are gonna come in and clean the room.

And I'm like, why am I picking other people's stuff up like that? Like. And again, you know, there is a bit of being nice, but like, come on. Like I, I didn't put it like, I, I assumed that was part of my job just because I grew up, like that was part of it. And that like, that's what people were thinking of me and I was like, God, I don't wanna be known as the pretty, the person that goes and.

Makes the room nice. 

Well, and these are the exact things that we as women do because we're people pleasing. We were brought up that way. And what it does is the other people end up looking at us as the doers, not as the strategic thinkers. And so it [00:13:00] really is holding us back. 

It, it, it is. And I mean, I go so far now, Erica, to do things like, I used to always carry my notebook in front of me, and I now carry it like any other man does down on my side because it's just, this is closing, right?

Like, and if I can put it down on the side, I walk in and it's more commanding, like it's those little switches that make a difference in how you're perceived and how you show up that you can be the. The most strategic, you know, woman out there, but you are kind of taking little notches out of how people perceive you that you don't even know that you're doing that make a difference.

I always love Eric. I don't know, like I, I. I, I laugh about it. 'cause you go into a meeting and men are like, they pull their chair up, they spread their books out, they kinda lean back in their seats, right? And they take up space. And there was little polite Tracy when I was, you know, younger. Like I'd take my [00:14:00] notebook and I'd just squish in and I'd have my little spot and I was like.

I noticed it one day and I'm like, this is crazy. So now I go in and I'm like, ladies, spread out. Like spread out. Take your space. Like, let's, let's get, you know, let's get comfortable here. You, you know, you were invited to the meeting. You have every right to take up as much space as you want. Like, I mean.

It, it, and it's, you know what, it's gets you into a mindset, right? Like it's a mindset scenario that we are so programmed. Many of us, not everybody, but many of us are programmed this way. And I have seen a few men like this, so it's not like it's only one, but like, we're just so programmed to be like, oh, I gotta have my little space here.

Like, take it up, you, you deserve there. Your voice needs 

to be heard. They call it man spreading, where they just sit down and it's like, I see it all the time at the airport where a dude will sit in a middle seat and he'll take up so much space with his fricking legs that it's like expending over two other chairs.

And I'm like, dude, what is [00:15:00] wrong with you? Exactly. Oh my gosh. So Tracy, I wanna talk about this, you know, idea of being the only because Verizon heavily male dominated, right? A lot of your professional experiences kind of been in that realm. And you know, we talk about the little changes that we can make so that we are perceived in the way that we wanna be perceived.

And I would love to hear from your perspective, like the power of the only. How much should we be conforming to, you know, whatever the situation is, versus remaining authentic to us? I mean, is that gonna hold us back in any way, shape, or form? 

S you know, I thought it would, and I always thought like I had to, I would compensate being a woman in a room full of men.

I mean, I've been in meetings with, you know, large, uh, electronics vendors where I was the only one of 21, uh, you [00:16:00] know, people in a room. I always felt like I had to compensate by being the smartest and not the smartest in, in like. Technical, but like I needed to memorize everything about whatever I was responsible for.

Like I needed to know every fact, everything. And it would like, it held me back from the joy of actually doing a job. And leaders don't need to know everything because you can always go find something. Like you can go, always find the answer, but for some reason that that. That actually made me come across less confident and less, um, strategic because I knew every answer.

Right? And they're like, well, God, she must be studying like it did the, it did the reverse, right? Like it did the reverse versus just being confident in who I am. And then the other part is, is I always thought that I couldn't show my caring side. I always tell the story that I had this one. Point in [00:17:00] my life where, um, my father had had quadruple bypass surgery and had had to go back in the same day.

He was in the hospital for 90 days. He came the stress of trying to take care of my mom and my dad. I had this high powered job that I was doing and, and that, and I had a really bad, um, first. First marriage. Um, and I, you know, uh, was not good. Let me just say that. And I was going through so much stress and I went to the doctor 'cause I was having stomach problems and he is like, Hey, um, you're too nice to be in corporate America 'cause you're caring too much.

Like, he's like, you're never like trace, you should be a nurse, you should be a doctor. Like you should be doing something caring because I think you care too much about people. And in corporate America you can't care. Like you can't care and. That actually made me angry. And I was like, no, 

I 

don't like that.

Like I don't want it. Like I think I was trying to be a, you know, trying to be more like corporate [00:18:00] executive male, maybe not show my caring side. And when I decided that like, you know what, I'm gonna just be me. I'm gonna care, and I'm gonna ask about this person who just went, you know, know that his husband was in the hospital.

And so I. I will show my caring side and I will show that I can deliver strategy and be super effective. And when I stopped caring about trying to be like a man or, or come across and be authentic to who I am, that's when my, that's when I like literally started really shattering ceilings like that alone of being me and not, not worried about.

How I was who, how I was to another male and stopped worrying about like, not, not studying for everything. Not like being there, like it was, it was also more fulfilling personally, and I think more fulfilling to me, better at, better at leadership, better at caring about people. People [00:19:00] wanna know that their leader is human.

Mm-hmm. And I was trying to be something that that was, that was more stereotyped. 

Yeah. I'll never forget when I really showed up as a human, as a chief people officer is I had a wonderful group of, of women who worked with me and I was really going through it too, and it was like, I, I need a break and I needed like an immediate one week I have to step away kind of thing.

Everything was hitting the fan and it was getting really intense and. I was very honest with my team members about it and I was like, look, this is me taking my mental break because it's too much right now and I've delegated everything out and you don't need to worry about me. I'm going to see my really great therapist.

I'm gonna talk it out with her, and I will be back next week. And then, you know, a couple weeks went by and one of my team members came up to me and, and she just said, Hey Eric, I'm going through a really hard time right now too, and I just don't know that I can. I keep working through the rest of the [00:20:00] workday, like I'm just so stressed out.

I just wanna lay in my bed and watch trash TV and I, and she goes, do you mind if I do that? I was like, absolutely not. Like please go take care of yourself. And she came back later and she said, you know, the only reason I felt comfortable like asking for what I really needed in that moment was because you were vulnerable about it first.

And I knew that you wouldn't judge me and. That's the hardest part is because we always worry that we're gonna be judged and we're keeping all of that so closed in. We're losing that opportunity to show the human side and really connect with, with our teams. Um, but Tracy, I would love to know, have you ever been called.

Something like bossy or intimidating. 

Oh, I was gonna use bitchy. Could we use the word bitchy? Bitchy, yes. Yes. I hang up. And it's so funny because, you know, um, I, I had people also say like, can you just stop? [00:21:00] Like, can you just, and I'm like, stop. What? Well, you just are asking so much and you're just going, so, you know, so, and I'm like, but that's like.

I, the people that I learned the most from, and, you know, I didn't even know what a sponsorship was like of somebody sponsoring me. I knew what a mentor was, but like I had a boss who like would just push on me to a level to help me get to the next level. Right. It's not like, you know, it it, it's kind of crazy.

'cause also women are known, you know, when we, when we're demanding we're bo we're bitchy. Right? That's what we're consider I don't really, I. I just have decided that I don't really care what you call me. I'm, I'm effective. I'm gonna, and I'm out for your best. And, and you gotta build that trust. 'cause to your point, what you were just talking about, they trusted, you know, that that woman trusted you enough to have that like.

I, you can call me bitchy. You can call me whatever you want. But what you need to know about me is that I got your back. Right? Like I'm there for [00:22:00] you. 

Yeah, 

that's, I love that. You know what I mean? Call me whatever, but you know what, and it doesn't, trust doesn't happen. I always say this 'cause people think that like, oh, I trust my team.

Well, it's more about do they trust you? You gotta show 'em, to your point, that vulnerability, that like, and that care. And also I have those tough conversations. So that's maybe when I'm bitchy is when I have those tough conversations. But I'm doing it out of care. Like I'm doing it outta care. Right? 

Yeah.

Yeah. I've been called, I mean, definitely bitchy, but the one that really threw me for the loop was when I was called intimidating. 'cause I was like, I am the least intimidate. I'm like the friendliest person, you know? What are you even talking about? But you know, to kind of circle this back to what we were talking about in the beginning is like we're making people uncomfortable when we're not fitting into those little cookie cutter expectations that they want us to be.

So as a chief people officer, and I'm voicing my opinion and standing up for my team and saying what I believe in, which, by the way, is the right thing to do as a C-level leader. [00:23:00] People don't necessarily like that. And then, so I'm intimidating and it's like, but wait, you're doing the same thing for your team.

Why aren't you intimidating? And it's just bananas. So I would love to ask you if there's a woman out there who's listening that gets a piece of feedback like that, that just sits so uncomfortably with her, like what advice would you give her? 

You know, again, is I keep, I keep going back to like, um. Don't worry about being intimidating because you know what?

Honestly, or ask the question like, what is it that I'm doing that's intimidating? Like I, I really have a hard time, Eric, with people who do feel intimidated. By me. 'cause I do get that. I do get that and it does, and I'm like, I'm just, I put on my shoes the same way you do every morning. Like, I, I also, you know, have issues that are going on behind me and personally that you have no idea that I'm doing that, that I'm dealing with and you're dealing with.

And like, [00:24:00] I just like, we're gonna get better if we can get past that intimidating thing and just have conversations like titles. You know, wow. Yes. Titles are, are are the out there, but like, I just wanna get the work done. Like I just wanna get the work done so, you know. I would, if you've been called intimidating, unless you've been, you know, unprofessional in how you've, you are holding yourself up in a meeting.

Like, I wouldn't worry about it. Like, again, it, it goes to like a trust I have in myself if I've treated that person well and yeah, I might be tough, be treating well, I might be tough, but I'm doing it out of the spirit of helping them grow. I, I don't really like, just kind of move forward, keep moving forward.

It's not your responsibility to regulate their emotions, so 

I love that. 

I love them lot. If they're insecure and they need to call you intimidating. Soviets. 

Exactly. 

Alright, treaty, I've got one last question I'd love to ask you. And I think it's, it's not what I usually ask [00:25:00] a lot, but I just think it's gonna be a powerful one to end this conversation.

And I mean, you're a high powered woman, you've been in many positions of power. Was there any woman before you that really gave you the mentorship, like the belief in yourself? Or maybe even just planted a seed that you feel like, wow, this woman really changed the game for me. 

It is interesting 'cause both most of my sponsors or people who have really developed me have been men, believe it or not.

But I think if, uh, and this may, this may sound um, a bit corny, but I believe that my mom who went to college when very few women were going to college. Was married to, you know, a, uh, a World War ii, Navy [00:26:00] Seal. So tough guy. You know, my father was tough and he didn't let her work pass that until, not only until she had kids, but my mom taught me, um, a very important lesson, which is this.

To shall pass. And I would have those nights where I call her on my way home almost every night from any job that I was Erica. And unfortunately I lost her years ago. But I would call her and I would give her like the, the status of the day, like, and it would be like, oh my gosh, I'm not confident in myself.

I blah, blah, blah. And she'd be like, Tracy, just be you and realize whatever you're worrying about is not going to be. Most of the things you're gonna worry about are gonna be passed tomorrow, and there's nothing that you can do that you can't do if you don't just, you know, believe in yourself. And that alone, like she may have not been like, you know, a Cee o of an organization, but I will [00:27:00] tell you that.

She always saw the good in people and, um, and so that even like when you're having a difficult conversation, somebody's not doing what you expect them to do, like just knowing that she would always say, you just don't know. You just don't know what's going on. And just be good to people like she. You know, she was not only my mom, she became my best friend and she was my, I would say that woman that inspired me and I, I can just be, you know, a close, close to her, like what she did for me to somebody else.

Then, then, then I've accomplished everything. 

Oh my gosh. You wanna know what's wild? The quote my mother always says to me, is, this too shall pass. 

Oh my gosh. Mean it's ISN that wild. That's why I just started 

smiling as soon as you said it, because I was like, holy shit, me too girls. 

Oh my God. It's amazing.

It's a, and you know what? It's so powerful because we, as women in particular, I mean, how many times do we walk out of a meeting and we're like, oh, how did that go? We grade [00:28:00] ourselves. We're tough on ourselves. Right? Like it was the best advice ever. 

Oh my gosh. I love it. Tracy, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

And y'all, if today's conversation lit a fire under you, here's your next move. Don't keep it to yourself. Share this episode with a friend, drop a review, and y'all, let's keep the conversation going. Remember that your potential is limitless and the only thing standing in your way are those sticky floors.

But guess what? You have the power to break through them. So go out there. Take up some space and let's shatter some ceilings together.